Curse

Chev of Hardass · Nov 30, 2005, 12:50 AM // 00:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by TwilightOblivion

I am all for Scythes, no mater who they may be for

/signed

There is actually a Scyth already. Or was..... I haven't played PvE except for FoW/UW for a while, so I don't remember. There used to be White Scythes that the Mantle dropped.

......there was my off topic rambling.

TwilightOblivion · Nov 30, 2005, 02:10 AM // 02:10

but those arent actually scythes. they are just axes with a slightly scythelike blade. The closest thing to a scythe in the game is probably the battlepick

Weezer_Blue · Nov 30, 2005, 03:48 AM // 03:48

Ah now I got you. I think these players are rewarded by using long range weapons anyway though. They have the ability to kite, and all that stuff where a long range weapon is useful - without actually needing a long range weapon. Some long range spells (I think Smite is one) require you to have a weapon, but don't specify which. It could be a melee weapon or a long range weapon, but the guy with the long ranged weapon will have an advantage.
The most aggrevating thing about melee range is simply slow reaction. I press the button on time, but it may take a second for me to actually move. This may just be lag or something, but it can really throw off your entire combo. Even if the player is automatic, the connection usually isn't.

Symeon · Nov 30, 2005, 07:52 AM // 07:52

rofl this thread cracked me up...this guy Chev just won't stop 'elitist' quoting and arguing etc. Well that's the impression I got, anyway.

Siren · Nov 30, 2005, 09:12 AM // 09:12

Not to sound glib, but...generally squishy targets being given melee weapons for close-quarters combat?

The cool factor of a Necro swinging a scythe is basically all that would be good about this idea, I think.

/unsigned

Weezer_Blue · Nov 30, 2005, 08:36 PM // 20:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

Not to sound glib, but...generally squishy targets being given melee weapons for close-quarters combat?

The cool factor of a Necro swinging a scythe is basically all that would be good about this idea, I think.

/unsigned

Then should we remove all close range function of those "squishy" targets? Really, what weapon you use has very little effect on how fast you get killed, squishy or not. The entire PvP scene isn't like the randoms where stupid teams full of paladin premades go after the closest target to them, regardless of the fact that it's another mending W/Mo that advertises his "tanking" ability in PvP.

Lets see... We'll get rid of Earthquake Elementalists, Touch Necros, Most Smiters, and Illusionary Mesmers. They're squishy targets in close range. They must be useless right? Unless you're against idiots, the enemies will attack whoever the most dangerous target is, regardless of where he is. Infact, squishy targets at close range might help the squishy targets at long range with aggrevating body blocking.

BBoy_Manchild · Nov 30, 2005, 08:45 PM // 20:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weezer_Blue

Then should we remove all close range function of those "squishy" targets? Really, what weapon you use has very little effect on how fast you get killed, squishy or not. The entire PvP scene isn't like the randoms where stupid teams full of paladin premades go after the closest target to them, regardless of the fact that it's another mending W/Mo that advertises his "tanking" ability in PvP.

Lets see... We'll get rid of Earthquake Elementalists, Touch Necros, Most Smiters, and Illusionary Mesmers. They're squishy targets in close range. They must be useless right? Unless you're against idiots, the enemies will attack whoever the most dangerous target is, regardless of where he is. Infact, squishy targets at close range might help the squishy targets at long range with aggrevating body blocking.

but if the softy if far away casting spells, when they see someone running at them they can get away easier, when in melee range they are sitting ducks

Siren · Nov 30, 2005, 10:27 PM // 22:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weezer_Blue

Then should we remove all close range function of those "squishy" targets? Really, what weapon you use has very little effect on how fast you get killed, squishy or not. The entire PvP scene isn't like the randoms where stupid teams full of paladin premades go after the closest target to them, regardless of the fact that it's another mending W/Mo that advertises his "tanking" ability in PvP.

Lets see... We'll get rid of Earthquake Elementalists, Touch Necros, Most Smiters, and Illusionary Mesmers. They're squishy targets in close range. They must be useless right? Unless you're against idiots, the enemies will attack whoever the most dangerous target is, regardless of where he is. Infact, squishy targets at close range might help the squishy targets at long range with aggrevating body blocking.

What are you talking about? Pointing to the Earthquake Eles, Touch Necros, Smiters, IW is pretty irrelevant here. Those are close-quarters spell casters. Spells are not melee. You're suggesting giving spellcasters melee-type weapons (physical damage), and I just don't see the need for it, honestly.

Let's talk IW for a second. It's an enchant in the Mesmer Illusion magic line. Right there, you're already going to need Mesmer as part of your character. What's going to be the second part? In order to use IW to its fullest extent (as in, not being completely useless when it gets stripped/shattered/etc), chances are, a Warrior complement will be your best choice. And what skill attributes do Warriors have? Melee weaponry.

Here's how I see that IW. If you're not playing with a Warrior complement in your IW character, your IW build will suffer for it, because casters can't use melee weapons if they don't have the proper combination. That's the trade-off for getting armor-ignoring IW damage: if your (Elite) enchant of IW gets removed, most of your build just became entirely useless...as it should be.

You base a build on that Mesmer Elite (an Elite whose recharge time is roughly 1/3 longer than its duration, keep in mind), then I really see no reason to give you a melee-based, caster attribute-based weapon. The minute you decided to use a build based on IW, without any melee physical damage back-ups for when that enchant is removed, your damage output should be negated, as far as I'm concerned, because you took that risk by using IW.

Your suggestion flirts with the idea of making every class able to do close-quarters physical combat, and I don't think that's a good idea at all, I'm sorry. If casters were given those types of weapons, what would happen, you think?

Earth Eles/Necro Curses secondaries could be running around with an Earth/Curses-based melee weapon, doing physical damage that rivals a Warrior in some cases (max sword vs max wand, not much damage difference there), with extra defenses against Lightning attacks (viability of Air Spiking vs melee goes out the window), not to mention using defense-boosting Earth magic enchants (there goes physical damage), non-removable Wards (there goes physical damage again), and then on top of that...throwing around a Curses Hex or two (Necro Curses, 'nuff said).

I'm sorry, but that's certainly within the realm of possibility in your suggestion, and truly a recipe for disaster. Most of the above is already possible. I don't think it's wise from a combat perspective to then afford yet another ability.

I still completely disagree with giving casters melee weapons, and I re-iterate my previous post that the "cool factor" should be the only reason a Necro gets to swing a scythe around on the battlefield, and I get the sense that most signing for this suggestion are thinking about the "cool factor," rather than considering the implications in combat.

/still unsigned

darkdragon99 · Nov 30, 2005, 10:43 PM // 22:43

if i'm not mistaken we didn't say make it physical my suggestion was a war staff that was melee range i never said to change the damage it did

Siren · Nov 30, 2005, 10:51 PM // 22:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkdragon99

if i'm not mistaken we didn't say make it physical my suggestion was a war staff that was melee range i never said to change the damage it did

A Mesmer rapier doing chaos damage...why bother using IW at all then?

The idea sucks. lol.

darkdragon99 · Nov 30, 2005, 11:04 PM // 23:04

i said don't change the damage that means speed max or even if you want you can lower the max damage of the melee range ones.

i wasn't the one who said the rapier i said make them all staffs. every caster class gets one warstaff that still can help there spell lines and such. they will all be 2 handed so it balances the range diffrences you lose your off hand to go to melee range.

NatalieD · Nov 30, 2005, 11:19 PM // 23:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

Let's talk IW for a second. It's an enchant in the Mesmer Illusion magic line. Right there, you're already going to need Mesmer as part of your character. What's going to be the second part? In order to use IW to its fullest extent (as in, not being completely useless when it gets stripped/shattered/etc), chances are, a Warrior complement will be your best choice. And what skill attributes do Warriors have? Melee weaponry.

No competent IW mesmer uses any weapon-based warrior skills. The warrior secondary is just for Flurry.

Quote:

Here's how I see that IW. If you're not playing with a Warrior complement in your IW character, your IW build will suffer for it, because casters can't use melee weapons if they don't have the proper combination. That's the trade-off for getting armor-ignoring IW damage: if your (Elite) enchant of IW gets removed, most of your build just became entirely useless...as it should be.

You base a build on that Mesmer Elite (an Elite whose recharge time is roughly 1/3 longer than its duration, keep in mind), then I really see no reason to give you a melee-based, caster attribute-based weapon. The minute you decided to use a build based on IW, without any melee physical damage back-ups for when that enchant is removed, your damage output should be negated, as far as I'm concerned, because you took that risk by using IW.

Except you can already just switch to a wand and do exactly as much damage as the proposed mesmer melee weapon.

Quote:

Earth Eles/Necro Curses secondaries could be running around with an Earth/Curses-based melee weapon, doing physical damage that rivals a Warrior in some cases (max sword vs max wand, not much damage difference there), with extra defenses against Lightning attacks (viability of Air Spiking vs melee goes out the window), not to mention using defense-boosting Earth magic enchants (there goes physical damage), non-removable Wards (there goes physical damage again), and then on top of that...throwing around a Curses Hex or two (Necro Curses, 'nuff said).

A sword does substantially more damage than a wand, and warriors have more defense against lightning than elementalists, so... this paragraph is nonsense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

A Mesmer rapier doing chaos damage...why bother using IW at all then?

IW doesn't do chaos damage. Mesmer wands do chaos damage. The idea here is to have a weapon that does damage just like a wand, but not at range. I don't see how this can possibly be considered unbalanced.

darkdragon99 · Nov 30, 2005, 11:30 PM // 23:30

for you iw ppl i have a nice saying for you don't put all your eggs in one basket

Weezer_Blue · Dec 01, 2005, 12:24 AM // 00:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

What are you talking about? Pointing to the Earthquake Eles, Touch Necros, Smiters, IW is pretty irrelevant here. Those are close-quarters spell casters. Spells are not melee. You're suggesting giving spellcasters melee-type weapons (physical damage), and I just don't see the need for it, honestly.

I stopped reading here cause you said that I based my idea on physical damage when I clearly stated several times that it would still do non physical damage. Also because you seem to think that an earthquake elementalist does not need to stay in melee range so a melee casting weapon would be useful. And finally, because you based your argument on IW: One of the most useless skills in the game. Despite having terribly underpowered damage compared... Oh... say... Anything? It is also easily removed crippling your build for another 40 seconds - and if you can't take a disabled mesmer with no back up out in under 30, you suck.

Siren · Dec 01, 2005, 04:30 AM // 04:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by NatalieD

No competent IW mesmer uses any weapon-based warrior skills. The warrior secondary is just for Flurry.

I wasn't talking about skills. I was talking about skill attributes. Based on the weaknesses of IW, I don't think a competent IW mesmer uses IW at all. It's a fun skill, but you need Warrior attributes to make it worthwhile, if only to get the bare minimum weapon requirement so you can still do damage after IW gets obliterated.

Quote:

Except you can already just switch to a wand and do exactly as much damage as the proposed mesmer melee weapon.

So why even need a mesmer melee weapon in the first place? The suggestion makes no sense because there is absolutely no need for it from a gameplay perspective; there's only a need for it, like I've said before, from a "cool factor" perspective.

Quote:

A sword does substantially more damage than a wand, and warriors have more defense against lightning than elementalists, so... this paragraph is nonsense.

Sword max is 15-22. Wand max is 11-22. Not factoring in Strength...I don't really see "substantially more damage" in-game.

Regarding Lightning defense, throw up a Ward, some Earth enchant defenses, coupled with Aeromancer armor, and if my math isn't completely off, your AL won't be overshadowed by the Warrior's armor. In some cases, you'll have a higher (if only temporary) AL. Warriors having more defense against Lightning than Eles? A quick number crunch is saying otherwise. ~_^

Quote:

IW doesn't do chaos damage. Mesmer wands do chaos damage. The idea here is to have a weapon that does damage just like a wand, but not at range. I don't see how this can possibly be considered unbalanced.

Again, though...what's the point? It's still sounding like a wholly extraneous and nigh useless suggestion. If you're doing the same damage with a wand anyway, with an attack speed roughly equal to a sword, why the need for an actual melee weapon in the first place?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weezer

I stopped reading here cause you said that I based my idea on physical damage when I clearly stated several times that it would still do non physical damage.

I'm going to ask again...if you're going to be doing the same damage anyway, why bother with a melee caster weapon of any type? You're not going to be focusing on doing damage with your weapon if you're any one of the above-listed close-quarters spellcaster builds, after all, because the point of being a close-quarters spellcaster build is to do damage in close-quarters with your spells.

Quote:

Also because you seem to think that an earthquake elementalist does not need to stay in melee range so a melee casting weapon would be useful.

I'm trying to break this sentence down so I can decipher the point you were trying to make with it, but...I'm having trouble. You're saying that I was implying...an Earthquake Ele could walk away from melee range and still have a melee caster weapon be useful? See my above point. I'll also re-iterate below.

If you're a close-quarters spellcaster, you're focusing on dealing damage with the spells, not with whatever is equipped in your right hand. I'm not saying you shouldn't swing away with wands, truncheons, etc., but what actual and legitimate benefit could there possibly be to getting these melee caster weapons?

If you're going to be hitting the space bar in close-quarters with any type of close-quarters spellcaster build...I highly, highly, highly doubt you'll see some dramatic jump in your damage output or improvement in your build's performance, simply because you can go into melee range without having to use the WASD keys.

I don't see how painful manually getting into proper positioning is. If anything, hitting the space bar and having the pathfinding get stuck is far more painful, and in GvG/PvP, or even PvE, the pathfinding gets stuck pretty often, especially on a crowded battlefield.

...are people really getting that...lazy...as to require the computer to even put them in proper position for their attacks?

Quote:

And finally, because you based your argument on IW: One of the most useless skills in the game. Despite having terribly underpowered damage compared... Oh... say... Anything? It is also easily removed crippling your build for another 40 seconds

I'm sorry, but when I saw you mention "Illusionary Mesmers" in the same thought process as melee weapons for casters, I naturally assumed you were referring to a build that used Illusion magic in close-quarters, swinging a sword around. Honestly, that's a logical connection that anyone would make, I'd think.

Quote:

and if you can't take a disabled mesmer with no back up out in under 30, you suck.

And this has what to do with anything? It's irrelevant to the topic at hand, and it's not adding anything to your rebuttal...so why include a sentence like that? It just comes off as trite and annoying.

As a sidenote here, it seems to me that this suggestion is really something the game doesn't need at this point, or really, at any point in time. I keep asking "what's the point?" because honestly, I don't see a point to this proposed feature.

If I'm the only person who thinks this, I'll shut-up, but I'm hoping others noticed, too. I know I saw one or two people on the first page talking about how this idea seems a bit extraneous.

darkdragon99 · Dec 01, 2005, 04:48 AM // 04:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

And this has what to do with anything? It's irrelevant to the topic at hand, and it's not adding anything to your rebuttal...so why include a sentence like that? It just comes off as trite and annoying.

umm you mean like everything you say also pay attention the speed of the wand or staff wouldn't change there for it would still be slow.

a spells caster weapon doesn't matter anyway is your argument i have noticed so y the hell are you agruing? if the weapon doesn't matter whats your freaking problem?

Siren · Dec 01, 2005, 05:14 AM // 05:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkdragon99

umm you mean like everything you say also pay attention the speed of the wand or staff wouldn't change there for it would still be slow.

a spells caster weapon doesn't matter anyway is your argument i have noticed so y the hell are you agruing? if the weapon doesn't matter whats your freaking problem?

Since it doesn't matter why do we need it? That's my point. This is one of those useless suggestions that really do not change anything in terms of how the game is actually played, apart from letting players keep hitting the space bar to stay in melee range, without having to actually play to stay in melee range.

I have two main points:

One, this suggestion doesn't change anything in terms of combat dynamics, so there, it's totally unnecessary and extraneous, and I'd like to see more important changes/additions, quite honestly, that have an actual impact on the gameplay, rather than...see #2

Two, if a player can't be bothered to actually concentrate on manually positioning themselves for optimal performance for whatever their build requires, then I do not consider that to be a respectable reasoning for suggesting something like this idea. Simple as that.

Positioning is important in this game, and adding a feature like this is asinine, because instead of actively searching for an optimal position for a close-quarters Smiting build, what's the player going to have to do? Select the target and hit the space-bar. Auto pathfinding will take over, and if the player's lucky, they may get close enough to their target so they can actually do something.

But given how dreadful the pathfinding can be in this game sometimes? That player may very well end up having to (gasp!) manually control their character, and manually find their optimal positioning. In that scenario, the player may as well just have controlled their movement from the get-go, which effectively castrates this entire "melee caster weapon" idea.

jesh · Dec 01, 2005, 05:53 AM // 05:53

I think you're being kind of harsh. Sure, it's not the most useful idea in the world, but there's some stupid crap that's already in gw. I don't see how adding more caster weapons would be harmful to anyone, it'd just be nice to have a new look.

I don't know about you, but I personally don't even bother attacking with my monk, or my mesmer. I think the original point was just to have weapons for attributes that currently have nothing, like wilderness, or just to be different. I don't see any more problem with that than adding new armor.

Somewhere along the way all this junk popped up.. but whatever. I'm all for new weapons, even if they are useless.

/signed

NatalieD · Dec 01, 2005, 07:49 AM // 07:49

Siren, the point of these weapons - as stated many times - is, essentially, convenience. Yes, it's already possible to play builds based on touch-range spells without that convenience. No, the lack of these weapons is not a huge problem in dire need of immediate fixing. But why not add a little something to the game that will make them play more smoothly and more in-line with the general flow of the game? It's not like this would be a huge undertaking for Anet. A few new weapon models is all that's needed. Which does take some work - but it would add just as much to the game as any other graphical work that could be done.

Siren · Dec 01, 2005, 08:38 AM // 08:38

Natalie, I understand the idea of it and all, I just don't feel that it will be adding any convenience at all, aside from the likely resulting issues of sloppy gameplay.

The only way for this to work is the AI being capable of finding a good path in the middle of combat. With hectic battlefields, players moving around constantly, for all intents and purposes a controlled chaos, depending on--for the sake of convenience--the AI to even keep the player within melee distance is a shortsighted and half-baked idea, because how convenient is the AI at this point?

To use an ancient example, it reminds me of Joe Montana Sports Talk Football on Sega Genesis. It was a fun football game, of course, but it suffered from major, major issues with the AI, notably, the AI could not recognize alternate paths. It was a beeline for the ball, that was it.

The AI glitch was so bad at times that my brother and I could get a lead of one field goal within the first few minutes of the first quarter, and then proceed to run around the field. And I'm not talking about it figuratively. I'm talking we literally could run down the sidelines, hang a right or a left at the goal line, run down that, then turn back on the other sideline and keep doing it in an endless loop. Know why? Because that game's AI functioned in a very similar way to how the AI functions in GW.

It's a beeline on a strict, set path, because the AI does not have the ability to recognize strategic chokepoints. It happened with that football game, it happens now. Had the AI been able to recognize that cutting our run off by cutting across the field earlier would allow them to tackle us, we wouldn't have been able to run rectangles around them. Strategic chokepoints.

Same principle here. The melee caster weapon idea relies on the same type of AI. You hit the space bar to start running in, that player runs around the field, and because the AI is controlling your character's movement at that point, it'll keep running as long as the target keeps running.

And if that target is doing something similar to rectangling around a football field...the very idea behind melee caster weapons--the convenience of it--is no longer convenient, because you, the player, will have to take manual control. Either you take manual control and go for the strategic chokepoint to cut off the run, or you select a different target. The AI can't do that.

There is really absolutely no reason at all, from combat dynamics, to put those weapons in. None at all.

If it's not convenient to manually position your character for combat, and so you ask for what amounts to a set of training wheels, but those training wheels predictably and routinely break, forcing you to keep your own balance and pay attention to what you're doing...how convenient were those training wheels? Did they serve their purpose? No. They didn't.

The minute you would need to take manual control again from the AI routine required by the melee caster weapons is the minute you should realize the idea is fundamentally flawed and inherently broken. A convenience is only a convenience when it's...a convenience. Babysitting a beeline AI is not convenient.

/still unsigned